History or PRE-history?

I got into a heated argument with a young Spaniard a few hours ago. It started out by him saying that the history in the USA isn't as old as Europe. I told him that as a nation, the USA's history is young but generally speaking, the history of the Americas go way, way back.

That's where the argument began, by the difference in opinion of history versus pre-history. He even consulted wikpedia (not a reliable source) to which I did see how history was defined versus pre-history. Prior to consulting wikipedia, he argued that history began with writing, he mentioned Mesopotamia, cuneim (sp) form of writing, etc.

I explained that history doesn't begin with writing, unfortunately it did mention that in wikipedia and he said that he was right. I assured him that this is a "western", definitely a "European" concept, and I even asked him if he was into anthropology to which he didn't reply. This is evident in our own language, I guess you could make up a word for pre-history but our word mo'olelo is just that.

But these people just don't see it. They use words like history and pre-history to actually put a date on things. I explained how that's not the case for indigenous people and he mentioned those in the rain forest and how he feels sad for them. I asked this guy why did he feel sad, was it because he felt they weren't as intelligent? I mean this guy made up all kinds of excuses bringing up "technology" so I had to ask him it depends on how he defines what that is really.

To him, technology only meant conveniences. And I said that's exactly what it is, but if we were to give clothing to these people in the forests whom he feels sorry for, and even taught them how to manufacture the clothing themselves, that alone in itself is technology. I know he didn't understand where I was going with that analogy, but basically we can't put a time stamp on these things, especially attached to words.

He denied that this doesn't mean the indigenous people aren't smart, but just the fact that he already said he feels sorry for them because he feels they aren't as comfortable as he is, just wreaks of Eurocentrism.

I'm getting sick & tired (my favorite phrase) of encountering people who really feel they are better than us because of their definition of certain words, technology & in their minds as with this guy I spoke to today, feel that history begins from a certain point, and in his case, it begins with writing.
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  • Mahalo e Tane!

    Hui e Kaohi...I almost mentioned how people have learned to dislike monarchy or anything has to do w/ hereditary rulers and almost mentioned it yesterday to that guy since we side tracked into another discussion which was other languages spoken in Spain which I knew of and could speak a little of more than this guy who is from there. He mentioned their King who he explained was nothing more than a "representative" of the country but doesn't rule the government to which I said, "he doesn't govern the nation."

    Anyway, I kinda digressed from what you were saying in your response but this term pre-history is actually new to me, I've never heard it used before but this guy's clarification as to what was "history" prior to him pointing out what Wikipedia said which i saw the word pre-history just had me floored, and pretty pissed actually. It's a stupid concept.

    If I try to think of the word in Hawaiian, if it exists (I won't look it up in the dictionary), that would be something like mamua + moolelo? Moo in itself says something that merged with olelo. Moo, aside from just story in general but meaning succession or a series. If we look at moopuna, I believe "puna" in the sense of a section between to points, a joint? So, to have a word like pre-history applied in the Hawaiian language, that wouldn't make sense, which is why I told this guy it just doesn't make sense b/c that's a European/Western concept to which he said it's not. But he could only go by what Wikipedia said. Auwe!
  • Aloha Kalani,

    Thank you for writing and clarifying the arguments that I grapple with each day. Pre-history is one of them. The Monarch, I would love to hear your argument. I've always held the position that the Monarch should rise up from the underground, however, with the understanding that they are many of us that reign in the pre-existing (before Kamehameha). That is my explanation for pre-existing--to clarify. There are many of us that are on land (holding on by the hair of our chinney chin chin, so to speak) and we exist. We exist with all the trimmings of the culture, but that is up for interpretation. The UH at Manoa, sadly Hawaiian Studies, have conjoined with the American Studies. Most recently we've had multi battles in our communities from the academic Hawaiian Studies and American Studies 'hurt locker' our Na Kupuna Practicioners. OHA, Olelo and Waianae High School all three entities slaughtered our Na Kapuna Practicioners. These three colonizers ripped apart 'real' culture practices for education. I'm still in a shock mode.
  • This is a great discussion relative to concepts, perception, and interpretations. Both your remarks are remarkably keen and coherent. Understanding and agreeing to the terminology and definitions in its usage can put everyone on the same page. I just love the comments that have been made. Mahalo ia 'olua!
  • I could, but they may insist that they are the Macs...although most of these people I speak to (on Skype) have PCs & they realize I'm using a Mac. lol
  • Maybe next time you can use the analogy of those Mac vs PC commercials lol.
  • Ah, mahalo e Kamatose. I forgot to explain to him that we all define our comforts differently. It got confusing since he spoke in Spanish & my level isn't that advanced yet. lol

    Funny you should mentioned Mac laptop. Maybe I should feel sorry for those w/ a PC? lol
  • I've heard this a lot and you really nailed it. What's to feel sorry for? He should feel sorry for himself being married to the conveniences of the modern world. I think the movie Fight Club said it best, "The things you own end up owning you." Those people may not have a Lexus and a Mac laptop but I'm sure they're happier and healthier than the rest of the so-called "civilized" world.

    Some people can't see the forrest for the trees, or I guess a more modern analogy would be the City for the buildings (since they cut all the trees down).
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