Royalty, Commoner, what does this prove?
Who would be for it and what do you think? I know this will never happen but with all the crap of who wants to claim who what where when and why...it would be an interesting finding.
This would stop all those who make false claims. And if we continue this way...what if we are forced to do this one day? Hmmm? Just think outside the box for awhile....SMILE
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What would be the point?— what good would it do?
lastly seeing the limitation in post one… It seams like it may actually return quite a number of false positives and negatives.
One more thought since I talking so much right now. . . . . . .I waiting for a great leader to emerge. I hope and pray that Akua will bless us with someone who we all can look towards and say, He/She got my devotion. We need something/someone to pull us all in for unity. That's my mana'o.. sorry off the subject. aloha
I was one who listened to the kupuna talk all the time as a kid and paid attention. Though they never spoke about DNA they did have a concept of characteristics that can be seen in a descendant of the great chiefs of old. They would use the term "kanaka makua" but most often "pulapula" to signify that a characteristic has been shown from an ancient ali'i or his/her lineage. I was always taught to represent the family and was instructed how to walk, talk, and act. Lokahi was a concept of balance, physical, mental, spiritual and kuleana and aloha is something taught from as far back as I can remember. I'm not trying to emply that I'm anything special, cause I not, but I do believe that you should be able to tell and feel the mana of the ali'i as it can be trangenerational. Good teaching to keiki continue even to this day in many of these ali'i families. There are those who can talk a talk but the 'ano or essence of them tells a different story. Then there are those who says a little but tells a lot, and the mana is made known the only way it can. You can't fake mana. It is felt and recognized by all those who nurtures it. I believe we all come from ali'i lines, but some forgot how they're connected and some may have the mo'o but forgot how to act like one. To be recognized as an ali'i today, you gotta be as such, not act, but be. We all know the sacred kuleana of the ali'i. I don't care if they come from Kamehamea or Keouakuahuula, if they the real deal, they got my vote. That's my mana'o.
Kaapuikinaea > Kupaa2000September 18, 2009 at 4:59am
Mahalo e kupaa no ko manao. I like that thought. Thanks for sharing.
Interesting thought. The possible problem is it may reinforce the concept of a "blood quantum" being necessary to qualify for dis 'n dat. I am not Hawaiian, so this is ha'ole manao.
The problem with any "blood quantum" is that in time no one will be able to meet the standard. By analogy look at land title.
When the palapala sila nui was initially granted, the first ohana owned 100 percent of the land deeded to them. Fast forward 150 years and the descendants own a 2 percent interest, if they're lucky! With each passing generation the percentage gets smaller.
But for thousands of years the Kanaka Maoli have known who they are. Keep it that way! Yes it is increasingly difficult, especially online, but you will always know...without DNA !
Mahalo for your mana'o J.D'Alba...but the sake of this discussion of genealogy and DNA, it would have nothing to do with blood quantim you are either from the royal ties or you are not. Markers can tell you how closely related you could be no matter paternal or maternal. So it can be done if it comes to that level of degree of proof for the hawaiian kingdom if it was needed.
That was the purpose of the Royal Order of Kamehameha which was established by Lot Kamehameha that still exists today. There is the original and one that separated from it and became a corporation body. There are also Royal societies that must declare their lineage and are recognized by their members, and of course there are descendants that don't subscribe to all those orders and societies as bing clubhouse Hawaiians. So, there you have it; a potpourri of societies that have maintained their genealogies. The rank of Hawaiian ali'i is based on the mana inherited and that is why it's important to know who's the mother and who's the father. That will determine the rank of ali'i and not just that one descends from one ali'i. The mana is diluted. The Hawaiian system differs from the British/European and Asian/Jpanese system. One cannot compare the Hawaiian system with those. If you go back in their history, it does stem from warlords and have nothing to do with the mana. The only similarities is that they married within their own family to keep the power and genes within their own family. The U.S. and other countries have the same system except they call them Presidents, Chairmen, or dictators. All semantics! Today, we learned to live without the ali'i; why try to bring them back if one cannot be loyal to a long-termed rule even with a democratic system within it as the constitutional monarchy?
The true purpose to know that you descend from ali'i in one form or another is to live in a pono way as your ancestor and preserve that reputation in keeping them alive as someone whom you represent in today's society and not tarnish their names whom you descend from and honor. Let's not forget that and live our lives to the fullest and with kuleana pono'i.
Mahalo Uncle Tane...I love your last paragraph. Funny that you mention this as a few months ago myself, one of my sisters & a cousin were approached to be members of the Ka'ahumanu Society by another cousin of ours - we're the next generation. It was an honor and privilege to discuss our women of the past and their contribution and efforts of the society. The best treat ever was a story of one of our tutus whom we never met - we are going to view her black holoku which is in mint condition and is a little over 100 years old...we are looking forward to this before the end of the year...we all got a chicken skin moment around the stories from this...AWESOME! And I'll end with your last paragraph because of our stories provided to us that day...
The true purpose to know that you descend from ali'i in one form or another is to live in a pono way as your ancestor and preserve that reputation in keeping them alive as someone whom you represent in today's society and not tarnish their names whom you descend from and honor. Let's not forget that and live our lives to the fullest and with kuleana pono'i.
Aloha...you all have some great viewpoints...Uncle Tane's viewpoint expands all possibilities.
If we could harvest DNA from all known ali'i that we have at rest to do such a thing, yes it would limit the branches that expand out - the point being, because these are the last descendants known and honored and entombed I say we should end it there. Meaning whomever can connect to them are the DIRECT descendants and some order will take place. If no one connects then enough talk about "I am the direct descendant, etc etc and I have the rightful etc etc - we no need hear this noise anymore as to who is the rightful one to restore themselves on throne, on power, on movement, etc. Now, for sake of argument, after this has been completed and we find a handful that is DIRECT we table the information because we then need to figure out whether before or after the testing what would this mean to us as citizens:
1). Just give em a lei, gifts, shake hands and pa'ina all weekend long?
2). Give them a rightful place on some committee to do ????
3). Provide them power to keep order to Kingdom rule?
4). ????
5). ????
We can forget about kahu hanai and adoptions of the past and allow these handful of direct descendants to spawn them on their own. Meaning the Direct Descendants decide to continue kahu hanai and adoptions from their own line or lines they know of - not our kuleana to judge what Direct Descendant do - we are honoring them to make these major decisions on bloodlines.
NOTE: I like what Kalani says, "...more so for those who claim "royalty", it may not work in their favor." Very true and a bummer but the buck stops there. They know who they are, and if the Direct Descendants want to honor them as such it would be up to the Direct Descendants. You give the power to judge royalty blood to the Direct Descendants for it would not be our kuleana to make these major decisions on bloodlines.
Here now you have a foundation to start from concerning conduct of ruling by blood ties but moreso where it might be like how England (I believe they rule from paternal and down) Japan (I believe they rule from maternal and down) - let the Direct Descendants decide on their own whether paternal/maternal because it is their kuleana. They use what genealogy they have and no one interferes or argue what they decide - not our kuleana. However, along side of their decisions they also work with what laws the Kingdom of Hawaii has utilized; whatever it may be as it is now.
This would be an impact of change but in my opinion, pono.
Please continue this discussion and share your continued mana'o on this...MAHALO to those that have so far contributed to this discussion. We need to talk about facts and draw conclusions to this already and this area is a start to entertain this area of concern.
Replies
lastly seeing the limitation in post one… It seams like it may actually return quite a number of false positives and negatives.
The problem with any "blood quantum" is that in time no one will be able to meet the standard. By analogy look at land title.
When the palapala sila nui was initially granted, the first ohana owned 100 percent of the land deeded to them. Fast forward 150 years and the descendants own a 2 percent interest, if they're lucky! With each passing generation the percentage gets smaller.
But for thousands of years the Kanaka Maoli have known who they are. Keep it that way! Yes it is increasingly difficult, especially online, but you will always know...without DNA !
Always thought da surfachick might be lolo.
The true purpose to know that you descend from ali'i in one form or another is to live in a pono way as your ancestor and preserve that reputation in keeping them alive as someone whom you represent in today's society and not tarnish their names whom you descend from and honor. Let's not forget that and live our lives to the fullest and with kuleana pono'i.
Tane
The true purpose to know that you descend from ali'i in one form or another is to live in a pono way as your ancestor and preserve that reputation in keeping them alive as someone whom you represent in today's society and not tarnish their names whom you descend from and honor. Let's not forget that and live our lives to the fullest and with kuleana pono'i.
If we could harvest DNA from all known ali'i that we have at rest to do such a thing, yes it would limit the branches that expand out - the point being, because these are the last descendants known and honored and entombed I say we should end it there. Meaning whomever can connect to them are the DIRECT descendants and some order will take place. If no one connects then enough talk about "I am the direct descendant, etc etc and I have the rightful etc etc - we no need hear this noise anymore as to who is the rightful one to restore themselves on throne, on power, on movement, etc. Now, for sake of argument, after this has been completed and we find a handful that is DIRECT we table the information because we then need to figure out whether before or after the testing what would this mean to us as citizens:
1). Just give em a lei, gifts, shake hands and pa'ina all weekend long?
2). Give them a rightful place on some committee to do ????
3). Provide them power to keep order to Kingdom rule?
4). ????
5). ????
We can forget about kahu hanai and adoptions of the past and allow these handful of direct descendants to spawn them on their own. Meaning the Direct Descendants decide to continue kahu hanai and adoptions from their own line or lines they know of - not our kuleana to judge what Direct Descendant do - we are honoring them to make these major decisions on bloodlines.
NOTE: I like what Kalani says, "...more so for those who claim "royalty", it may not work in their favor." Very true and a bummer but the buck stops there. They know who they are, and if the Direct Descendants want to honor them as such it would be up to the Direct Descendants. You give the power to judge royalty blood to the Direct Descendants for it would not be our kuleana to make these major decisions on bloodlines.
Here now you have a foundation to start from concerning conduct of ruling by blood ties but moreso where it might be like how England (I believe they rule from paternal and down) Japan (I believe they rule from maternal and down) - let the Direct Descendants decide on their own whether paternal/maternal because it is their kuleana. They use what genealogy they have and no one interferes or argue what they decide - not our kuleana. However, along side of their decisions they also work with what laws the Kingdom of Hawaii has utilized; whatever it may be as it is now.
This would be an impact of change but in my opinion, pono.
Please continue this discussion and share your continued mana'o on this...MAHALO to those that have so far contributed to this discussion. We need to talk about facts and draw conclusions to this already and this area is a start to entertain this area of concern.