From "5 Min. Forecast" -

“Frankly, it amazes me that we have allowed the [u.s., state, county] government[s] to tax us from the cradle to the grave,” another reader writes.

“What's next? A tax at the time of conception? An invoice waiting for you once you’re ‘welcomed’ into the world?

As citizens, we need to stand up and stop this nonsense. People in government are public servants and they need to start doing something for the public, besides taking their earnings. The sooner we start correcting the current situation, the sooner a lot of corruption, incompetence and greed of ‘public’ servants will stop.”
____________

Additions to the above are mine.

ku

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So what you paying taxes? who wen tell you that you owe them? No land tax on Mahele land.
As to Mahele land - this only applies to parcels that were initially granted to an individual - whose family is still in possession continuously.

Many mahele lands have been bought and sold - so don't qualify as being so from the start.

At least - this is my interpretation of the statute.
I dont know you Mr. Ching but people familiar with legal issues, unlike yourself have found different conclusions. First of all the Subjects of the Hawaiian Kingdom do not live under any formal or informal agreement with the American government and thus cannot be held to US tax law. Secondly broken or non continuous holding of a Mahele grant in of itself does not prevent recovering of ownership by the rightful heirs.

Fraudulent land titles particularly confused by the Tax Map Key system which misapply location descriptions are unfortunately common. These TMK are not valid in either country even if accepted by the majority of US occupiers as holding some value.

The TMK remain vulnerable to the clear title actions of the heirs and successors of the original land grants. As to individual tax exemptions: I believe Queen Liliuokalani had passed a lottery bill to prevent the need for a land tax which would include joint ownership.

Of course the status of the Kingdom law is held unabridged until the pro-tempore governments can be replaced by legally voted in representatives, empowered to address the updating of the law through the legislature.

This of course for you may be an American problem of which is not my concern and I hope you can convince your leadership to be more equitable in its dealings.

Aloha
Kai,

> I dont know you Mr. Ching

I dunno - maybe your memory isn't all there when you say you "don't know me." However, I'll play your game - so I don't know you either.

> but people familiar with legal issues, unlike yourself have found different conclusions.

There can be as many conclusions as there are trying to figure out the questions.

> First of all the Subjects of the Hawaiian Kingdom do not live under any formal or informal agreement with the American government and thus cannot be held to US tax law. Secondly broken or non continuous holding of a Mahele grant in of itself does not prevent recovering of ownership by the rightful heirs.

Rightful owners? What about those sellers who sold prior to the overthrow - when what is now the Bureau of Conveyances was totally legitimate? Can one still holler illegitimacy after a hundred years of legitimate and lawful "recordings?"

> Fraudulent land titles particularly confused by the Tax Map Key system which misapply location descriptions are unfortunately common. These TMK are not valid in either country even if accepted by the majority of US occupiers as holding some value.

Fraud is exactly that - FRAUD!

> The TMK remain vulnerable to the clear title actions of the heirs and successors of the original land grants. As to individual tax exemptions: I believe Queen Liliuokalani had passed a lottery bill to prevent the need for a land tax which would include joint ownership.

I don't remember my Queen passing a lottery bill. Apparently you remember something.

> Of course the status of the Kingdom law is held unabridged until the pro-tempore governments can be replaced by legally voted in representatives, empowered to address the updating of the law through the legislature.

And when will that be?

> This of course for you may be an American problem of which is not my concern and I hope you can convince your leadership to be more equitable in its dealings.

My leadership? Sorry - I have no leader. However, I am Onipa'a with the Queen and all she stood for and hoped for. Where are you?
ALOHA Kakou, e Ke Aupuni Moi O Hawaii Nei, Over Taxation was the main reason why United States went for Independence from England. As they believed that when a people is Over Taxed, there is No Freedom of the People.
After the passage of Public Law 103-150 Hawaiian Nationals of the Hawaiian Kingdom nation should not have to pay and Taxes to the State of Hawaii and the United States. In fact, Hawaiian Nationals should not have to comply with the laws of the State of Hawaii and the United States.
As a Hawaiian National of the Hawaiian Kingdom I am not a citizen of the State of Hawaii and the United States. As a Hawaiian National I live in my country, the Hawaiian Kingdom nation. The Lands that I walk on are the Sovereign Lands of the Hawaiian Kingdom nation. Sovereign Lands that I and my fellow Hawaiian Nationals have an Inherent Sovereign Claims to those lands of our nation.
The State of Hawaii and the United States have no Lawful Jurisdiction in my nation, the Hawaiian Kingdom.
Imua Ke Aupuni Moi O Hawaii Nei, o Pomaikaiokalani


Your statement-As citizens, [which country?]we need to stand up and stop this nonsense. People in government are public servants and they need to start doing something for the public, besides taking their earnings. The sooner we start correcting the current situation, the sooner a lot of corruption, incompetence and greed of ‘public’ servants will stop.”


Your answerMy leadership? Sorry - I have no leader. However, I am Onipa'a with the Queen and all she stood for and hoped for. Where are you?


Get rid of this post Clarence Ching, it only tells about your personal confusion.
I am so sorry to read these insulting posts directed at Clarence Kukauakahi Ching, a man with some of the least personal confusion on matters of culture and independence as any.

You say you don't know this elder activist, Mr. Landow. Well, you should. Ku (Clarence Ching) is the only individual in the islands who continues to place himself - as an individual! - on the front line against further desecration of Mauna Kea in the actions and lawsuits against more telescope development. Other people fighting this fight are doing this as members of organizations. For Ku to participate as an individual in these lawsuits means, for those who purport to know legal matters, that he will share responsibility - personal liability - for legal expenses, along with the organizations like KAHEA, Royal Order of Kamehameha (on Hawai'i island), etc. should this fight lose in courts. He is not a rich man to do this, just a stubborn one who has deep reverence for the mountain. He continues to stand firm against some major powers with deep pockets: the folks behind TMT, UofH, etc.

As a former lawyer, Mr. Ching knows exactly what he's doing in standing up like David to the telescope "Goliaths." He also has been known to use his legal background when considering other matters, such as in his long-standing activism in fighting against the many versions of the Akaka bill. For an account of one small part of his activity in opposing those bills, Mr. Landow, I suggest you watch "Doing it All with Clarence Ching" on Voices of Truth, both episodes. The one with Ku alone, and the one where he is interviewed together with Leon Siu.

His personal commitment to independence is unshakeable, and he personally lives with as little to do with American occupation as possible - very, very lightly on the land and thus is particularly unbeholden. As an elder, he now has decades of involvement in promoting Hawaiian culture and activism - including some of the first work done in bringing preservation to sacred places such as Kaniakapupu and Uluhaimalama. In the late 70's, he produced a documentary, The 'Aina Remains, which (among other things) told the true story of the protest planting of the garden of Uluhaimalama and the event to dedicate it as a landmark, which was something he helped to organize. Now, others, such as Baron Kaho'ola Ching and Lynette Cruz, have taken up this kuleana and help to continue the work of organizing people to continue caring for these places on a regular basis.

Ku is well known among many of the elder cultural practitioners and activists, and a good many of the younger ones too, who would be shocked at your disrespectful remarks. Many of them are here on MaoliWorld. Also, many people are related to each other - and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that family runs deep and stretches wide here and if you offer an insult to one, it may end up an insult to many. Ku has quite a few cousins here on MaoliWorld, including some of the most vocal activists. Do you know who they are?

Finally, Ku has his strong connection to the Queen, and is also pono with the land. He has walked more miles of Hawai'i island than most, across very rugged terrain, and in doing that has an intimate relationship with the 'aina. He has been leading an annual huaka'i with whoever cares to show up, exploring places that were used by na poe kahiko. This is just a fraction of what he does and has been doing for years, without fanfare.

I could not let your posts on this thread pass without comment. I also want to add the thought that nothing pleases the occupying powers more than to see their opponents arguing among themselves. So in the future, please, Mr. Landow, show some respect to the kupuna you are addressing.
Amy Marsh
Aloha Amy Marsh,

Yes I understand your confusion. Perhaps because some of this is a personal matter, for instance the notation to not know Clarence Ching is something that he himself has created and I was playing along with. He had posted something I wrote on Maoli world and pretended not to know me when the substance was attacked. It seemed an effort to discredit me and I too have cousins on maoli world. The are many other activities of Mr. Ching that have been problematic and his cultural efforts have served to undermine Hawaiian Independence fight. It is his stated position to me that he does not support Hawaiian independence.

Why is he a former lawyer, this is something you should ask him about. I cannot speak about his relationship with the aina but many people have expressed concerns about Mr. Ching and his role at OHA and after to protect the land.

In the beginning of my relationship with Mr. Ching I did as you are, defend him and it was most of the people I work with who have distanced themselves from him. I now understand why they have the position towards him that they do.

I do support his activities to help Hawaiian Americans, but he misleads Hawaiians about their rights in the Kingdom. I will not sit idle while he seeks to undermine our independence and which brings me to this stupid post...

What is he saying about taxes here. I wonder why any Hawaiian whose nation and land has been stolen would also pay taxes here. Clarlence Ching would have Hawaiians sit in the back of the bus and be patient for change.

He has provoked this discourse and hides from being straight forward. In essence he hides, so why do you need to defend him? He cant defend himself?

As far as who he works with I know them and I work with them and for the last time he is an American. Self declared, I don't understand his use of the Monarch of the Hawaiian Kingdom [Liliuokalani] and separating her from her position in that government. He does not even know the statutes of Liliuokalani and her passage of the lottery act.

We can all redefine history to make our arguments and Clarence Ching is misleading the people.

As for being a Kupuna, he himself denies being a kupuna [I have the video] and why is that? because he hides

we got to stand up together, but you can't make me accept nonsense from someone who will not answer a direct question.

Aloha, the putative Mr. Landow

post script- you seem to say I will make enemies because I am disrespectful to Mister Ching. You are right that I should not air our dirty laundry in public. He chose to leave any doubt that he was not working with us about six months ago. It is only here that we now have communication and I realize he may not let the Kupuna know of what his position is.

We need this airing of these issues so everyone is clear and if you like to attack me because you do not like the message, then I suggest you discuss with Clarence his priorities.

He is not pono here and with respect we have a right to know where he stands.
Dear me, Mr. Landow,
Did you or did you not write "I dont know you Mr. Ching but people familiar with legal issues, unlike yourself have found different conclusions." It's in your first response to him - above. So, you claimed to not know him, even though he had helped to get you speaking time at the secessionist conference in New Hampshire, not too long ago, as well as other encounters. So, to correct the record, the "not knowing" each other part orginated with your post.

So, this next post of yours seems very confused. I wrote mine initially - which was an accounting of Ku's activities on behalf of Hawaiian independence and restoration of the kingdom - because you seemed to be speaking of someone entirely different than the person I and many other people know. And because of this, I am sure he is well able to "defend himself" in a response to you, and doesn't need me or anyone else to do it.

And it is a fact, a sad fact, that many people in Hawai'i do pay taxes, who should not be made to do it, and you have taken a very mild observation on Ku's part and turned it into some kind of strange mudslinging opportunity. And just because he may not agree with you on some points, you call names? Really - common sense and Ku's record will tell you he has journeyed far from the childhood he shared with many others - where the false characterization of the Kingdom as a territory and then "a state" was uppermost and people only learned the truth gradually.

Come now, be fair!

Also, your characterization of my response to you as an "attack" is an exaggerated characterization of my intention and my words. Are you feeling quite well? Please get some rest, and perhaps you will be less likely to attack people without provocation.

With concern,
Amy Marsh
Mr. Landow!
I am hardly a "poor woman" and neither am I Ku Ching.

I write in my own words, my own voice, and I am frankly appalled that you think a woman cannot possibly be addressing you, on her own initiative and from her own convictions.

Frankly, it's the first time I've ever been mistaken for a man. Has that ever happened to you?

I know Ku well. He and I and David Igham co-authored "America's Tibet" together, back in 2004, printed in Hawai'i Island Journal. We've been in contact ever since. Therefore I knew about the New Hampshire secessionist conference, attended by Ku and others (including you - he gave up some of his own speaking time so you could speak).

Anyway, I suppose that in some weird way you thinking I'm Ku could be construed as a compliment. I guess you might feel humiliated to "take it on the chin" from a woman, but, frankly, that's what's happening.

Unfortunately, you have gone from one absurdity to the next in this series of posts. You might want to stop now, before you expose yourself anymore as a person sometimes given to oddly misplaced errors of perception and judgment, as I so kindly suggested in the last post.

On the other hand, this is kind of fun, and while I don't usually respond to people who act like internet "trolls" or particpate in "flame wars," you unfortunately make it too easy for me to have a few laughs at your expense. So, please do keep going if it suits you. Our friends here on Maoli World may find it instructive, if not amusing.
Amy,

I do like how you twisted my point of proxy and made a male female issue. You have this condescension down pretty well too. The description of New Hampshire is also inaccurate. He asked me to speak. so when you speak authoritatively I can not only assume it is with conversation with Mr. Ching.

It is this gathering of information that can only suggest a meeting of minds with Mr. Ching.

But make no mistake this is a deadly serious business and you have failed to address my concerns and by casting aspersions you insult us. We do not have time to waste on this propaganda that chooses to make me the issue.

A'ole no pulule wala au! makemake man'o no maika'i e au. auwe Ku e Amy la au pau. Pau hana o pilau.

A'ole This is hana that hurts the subjects of the Hawaiian Kingdom and those who choose to Ho'ohiki to America we aloha as well. But do not monkey wrench us expect us to sit by and take it.

pau
"Ku (Clarence Ching) is the only individual in the islands who continues to place himself - as an individual!" - on the front line against further desecration of Mauna Kea in the actions and lawsuits against more telescope development. Other people fighting this fight are doing this as members of organizations.

No offense but there are many Hawaiians in the islands like KU who stand alone and are not members of organizations that indemnify them of personal responsibility.

Ku has done great work. So has Kai. BOTH men have done some GREAT things. However this can happen when men are involved. (They fight.)


BTW Kai this is why I do not like it when non-oiwi get involved in the "front lines" of being catalysts to righting the wrongs

--- because WHEN they do it becomes about THEM instead of on the issue(s) and are distractions at the tasks and work at hand.





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