Posted by Jonah Kahanu on January 11, 2010 at 10:39pm
In the Hana dialect (Eastern Maui dialect), my grandfather told me daily conversation in the Hana dialect sounded like people saying poems to each other. My grandfather also said it is no where near sounding like the Ni'ihau dialect. I am curious of all of the dialects throughout the islands and hoping to bring back the old dialects throughout. I know in a few dialects, 't' is pronouced instead of 'k' when there is an 'i' before the letter. For instance, "kahiti." In a sentence, "E hele ana wau i te kahakai/kahatai." What great thoughts.
From my own mana'o. Born and raised in Hana. The kupuna would only 'olelo to each other. That's the only time I remember hearing it. Didn't quite learn the language until I was in middle/high school. Listening to them speak then is very different from learning it now. I took college courses and you get graded on spelling and how to pronunciate. But what I remember hearing.....they would "cut short" alot like pidgeon english, spoke really fast and it was in the tone that makes it sound like a song. You start low than you go higher than back down low again. Kind of hard to explain. What I learned in school is very proper 'olelo hawaii but I try to keep it old stlye......for example...Pu'ualu....you say it really fast and it sounds like Pualu or Pulu. This is the name of a place in Kipahulu. I was raised hearing it by my kupuna as Pulu......but later on found out how it was spelled from old maps. They just said it really fast. Not that many of them still alive. It's so amazing how they know names of certain winds and rains. Hawaiians were very poetic. It does sound like poems. It's the most beautiful thing to hear.
A maopopo no ho'i! Mahalo nui no ko 'oukou lokomaika'i e pane mai. Ua a'o 'ia mai au i kekahi mea hou i keia po. Makemake au e a'o mau i ka 'olelo Hawai'i ua pa'i 'ia mai ka Mikioneli, a mahop iho, a'o ana mai i ka 'olelo Matuahine 'oia'i'o no. I ka wa hope, makemake au e a'o aku i ka'u mau keiki i ka 'olelo Matuahine a 'a'ole ka 'olelo ke ha'i nei au.lol
Pololei, the phenomenon with the K being replaced by the 'okina in Hawaiian is something that basically never completed, I guess that's the correct thing to say. Not sure of the real linguistic term for that, but basically you ended up with two forms, as you said moko and mo'o, ha'i and haki. Basically Hawaiian's "K" came from the older "T" but ended up keeping both for the most part. Whereas the old "K" was turning into Hawaiian's 'okina. You can see these with words in other Poly langs, like Maori's whakarongo which is our ho'olono. Their whaka (pronounced faka for the most part, I think there may be regional differences with the WH) is our ho'o. I think in Samoan it's the same, fak, that causitive (I think that's what it's called) where in Hawaiian it would be HO'O and sometimes HA'A.
Then of course in other words where we have 'okina which is their K. But my point is, yes in Hawaiian sometimes both forms exists.
He mea hou teia ia'u i a'o ai i teia la...LOL...A'ale wau i lohe mua ia ua loa'a i mau kaila wala`au ana o ta katou olelo...Aka na'e ua maopopo loa no wau ano ota`a ta olelo ana o ta po`e mai kahi wahi aku a kahi wahi aku...Ua no`ono`o wau a ua loa'a ia ta kaila olelo o ta po`e Ni'ihau a me ta po`e mikiolneli...mamate wau e ho'olohe i ta olelo o Maui nui a Kama....
a mahalo a nui no ko 'oukou mana'o i ko kakou 'olelo Makuahine. I also noticed that some of our 'okinas were pronounced as "k" as well. For instance, Chinaman's hat is "Mokoli'i" Moko is Mo'o. Also, Hakipu'u which Haki can be Ha'i as well. Thanks you guys!
Funny you asked that question b/c I had that same question awhile back, since my family, at least one branch came from that area before they eventually settled in Huelo & then moved to Wailuku.
But I read about those things in Elbert & Pukui's Hawaiian Grammar book, about the T used following the vowel I for those of Halawa, Molokai as well as from informants of Kaupo & Kipahulu eastern Maui. That was based on their own interaction but maybe that pronunciation could've been extended even further.
A common misconception in a lot of people learning Hawaiian is the so called "old way" of pronunciation, like the K has replaced the T. More so the false idea that the missionaries actually changed the language, even some claims of how the language had a B, D, and G along w/ the T & R that many know about. And their means of support for this were old maps, basically documents written by Haoles.
What these people fail to understand is that these old cartographers (map makers) or sea captains who kept journals of their voyages as well as the missionaries back in the 18th & 19th centuries were not linguists.
Not sure if you heard the song by Miriam Makeba - PATA PATA, which has been done in many languages, in fact it was done by Na Waihooluu o Ke Anuenue. There is actually a click sound in there. Not only is it not so easy for us to do, but given that we don't know the language, if we were to write it down phonetically, we certainly wouldn't know how to put in writing that particular sound.
That was the case w/ these people hearing Hawaiian words pronounced. Aside from some speakers having a more T versus a K sound or vice-versa, either depending on the area, person and/or word or even the position of the letter in the word (as in the case of "Kahatai" or "i te Kahakai"), what these foreigners couldn't pick up on (as well as many people today learning the language) is that both the K and T sound isn't pronounced exactly like it is in English, not to mention the similarity in pronouncing both sounds.
So basically they spelled based on what they felt was the best spelling for the sounds they heard. It wouldn't be to many yrs. later that the glottal stop or the 'okina sound is represented by an upside down apostrophe. Although this sound existed, in the early written form it was never represented because they just didn't know how to write that sound down. Just like with "Pata Pata" and its click sound. In reality those click languages, more specifically Xhosa, has more than one type of click sound. This is an example of how the written language doesn't or could not (at that time) represent the exact sounds heard.
The K sound in the Polynesian languages, even in Filipino languages is actually much softer than it is in English. In English, it has a plosive sound, same goes for the T. These foreigners could've heard both distinctly at times but they just didn't realize they were basically the same sound, at least for Polynesians. The same occurs for Spanish speakers with their B and V and how they're the same sound, just that some of their words are spelled w/ a B, some w/ a V, and for some speakers some use a more B sound, some a more V sound, but many pronounce them the same, kinda like it's in-between a B and a V sound.
Generally, that's pretty much the same for the K/T, L/R, the P/B, V/W or even the G/K sound. The V is actually softer. Again, these people were not linguists so they picked & chose whichever letter they felt was appropriate. English pronunciation influence coupled with the fact that many people grew up with English as their first language made this change more obvious.
I've noticed this with people learning Hawaiian where the diphthongs (ai, ae, oi & oe) sound the same. In other words, words with AI sounds like AE and words with OI sound like OE. It seems like this was an influence from other languages of immigrants, but that's just my own opinion as far as why it happens. It definitely does happen. Yet Haoles, meaning people not from the islands can easily use their haole-pronunciation on Hawaiian words where they STRONGLY pronounce a diphthong when it isn't required.
For example, my great-nephew, born & raised in Washington state, he's 6 now. He says his name is kay-koa. Yes, he does a diphthong & when I heard it, I asked, "Why is he pronouncing his name Kekoa like a Haole?" Turns out, my niece who was raised in WA pronounced it the same way. *sigh* But Haoles do a diphthong when it's not there (even in the word - Kona, I heard "kou-na"), while locals tend to omit diphthongs when it's necessary. I've heard my cousin say ka-ko versus kakou.
I could go more into the G/K, T/K, R/L, but I've already said too much as it is, probably confused you even more rather than answer your question. I do know that back where I'm from, they are/have brought back some of the more dialectal differences common to that area, not sure it has to do with pronunciation though.
It is the old style an it was like poetry. Our language was like Maori our cousins.. If you hear when they talk you can understand a little but the T,R, and Y sounds was our old style.. The T's were for the K's, The R's were for the L's and Y's were for the I's.. Time is moving and we just need to get back and wa la'au to what we have here today! Mahalo for sharing! Aloha!
e aloha my tutu hanakahi use to write alot of poems, i am of a descendant line of poems, i am also an original lyrisisits who is kapu, i write lyrics like ghost writer.
Comments
Pololei, the phenomenon with the K being replaced by the 'okina in Hawaiian is something that basically never completed, I guess that's the correct thing to say. Not sure of the real linguistic term for that, but basically you ended up with two forms, as you said moko and mo'o, ha'i and haki. Basically Hawaiian's "K" came from the older "T" but ended up keeping both for the most part. Whereas the old "K" was turning into Hawaiian's 'okina. You can see these with words in other Poly langs, like Maori's whakarongo which is our ho'olono. Their whaka (pronounced faka for the most part, I think there may be regional differences with the WH) is our ho'o. I think in Samoan it's the same, fak, that causitive (I think that's what it's called) where in Hawaiian it would be HO'O and sometimes HA'A.
Then of course in other words where we have 'okina which is their K. But my point is, yes in Hawaiian sometimes both forms exists.
Funny you asked that question b/c I had that same question awhile back, since my family, at least one branch came from that area before they eventually settled in Huelo & then moved to Wailuku.
But I read about those things in Elbert & Pukui's Hawaiian Grammar book, about the T used following the vowel I for those of Halawa, Molokai as well as from informants of Kaupo & Kipahulu eastern Maui. That was based on their own interaction but maybe that pronunciation could've been extended even further.
A common misconception in a lot of people learning Hawaiian is the so called "old way" of pronunciation, like the K has replaced the T. More so the false idea that the missionaries actually changed the language, even some claims of how the language had a B, D, and G along w/ the T & R that many know about. And their means of support for this were old maps, basically documents written by Haoles.
What these people fail to understand is that these old cartographers (map makers) or sea captains who kept journals of their voyages as well as the missionaries back in the 18th & 19th centuries were not linguists.
Not sure if you heard the song by Miriam Makeba - PATA PATA, which has been done in many languages, in fact it was done by Na Waihooluu o Ke Anuenue. There is actually a click sound in there. Not only is it not so easy for us to do, but given that we don't know the language, if we were to write it down phonetically, we certainly wouldn't know how to put in writing that particular sound.
That was the case w/ these people hearing Hawaiian words pronounced. Aside from some speakers having a more T versus a K sound or vice-versa, either depending on the area, person and/or word or even the position of the letter in the word (as in the case of "Kahatai" or "i te Kahakai"), what these foreigners couldn't pick up on (as well as many people today learning the language) is that both the K and T sound isn't pronounced exactly like it is in English, not to mention the similarity in pronouncing both sounds.
So basically they spelled based on what they felt was the best spelling for the sounds they heard. It wouldn't be to many yrs. later that the glottal stop or the 'okina sound is represented by an upside down apostrophe. Although this sound existed, in the early written form it was never represented because they just didn't know how to write that sound down. Just like with "Pata Pata" and its click sound. In reality those click languages, more specifically Xhosa, has more than one type of click sound. This is an example of how the written language doesn't or could not (at that time) represent the exact sounds heard.
The K sound in the Polynesian languages, even in Filipino languages is actually much softer than it is in English. In English, it has a plosive sound, same goes for the T. These foreigners could've heard both distinctly at times but they just didn't realize they were basically the same sound, at least for Polynesians. The same occurs for Spanish speakers with their B and V and how they're the same sound, just that some of their words are spelled w/ a B, some w/ a V, and for some speakers some use a more B sound, some a more V sound, but many pronounce them the same, kinda like it's in-between a B and a V sound.
Generally, that's pretty much the same for the K/T, L/R, the P/B, V/W or even the G/K sound. The V is actually softer. Again, these people were not linguists so they picked & chose whichever letter they felt was appropriate. English pronunciation influence coupled with the fact that many people grew up with English as their first language made this change more obvious.
I've noticed this with people learning Hawaiian where the diphthongs (ai, ae, oi & oe) sound the same. In other words, words with AI sounds like AE and words with OI sound like OE. It seems like this was an influence from other languages of immigrants, but that's just my own opinion as far as why it happens. It definitely does happen. Yet Haoles, meaning people not from the islands can easily use their haole-pronunciation on Hawaiian words where they STRONGLY pronounce a diphthong when it isn't required.
For example, my great-nephew, born & raised in Washington state, he's 6 now. He says his name is kay-koa. Yes, he does a diphthong & when I heard it, I asked, "Why is he pronouncing his name Kekoa like a Haole?" Turns out, my niece who was raised in WA pronounced it the same way. *sigh* But Haoles do a diphthong when it's not there (even in the word - Kona, I heard "kou-na"), while locals tend to omit diphthongs when it's necessary. I've heard my cousin say ka-ko versus kakou.
I could go more into the G/K, T/K, R/L, but I've already said too much as it is, probably confused you even more rather than answer your question. I do know that back where I'm from, they are/have brought back some of the more dialectal differences common to that area, not sure it has to do with pronunciation though.